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Aaron George's avatar

I'm glad I've listened to enough of Poulos now to realize that I won't be missing out by not buying or reading his book. I've suffered through as much as I can on here and on other podcasts. He's obviously very well-read, and obviously does plenty of thinking, but I am just never going to succumb to sky gods and best-selling works of fiction as my answer to literally anything. Maybe that is what America needs, so good on ya, and let me be the first to wish you good luck. Our current societal trajectory (always subject to modification) is taking us places we've not been, and that scares an Orthodox religious pundit? Hmmm, sounds good to me. Religious tribalism has plenty to answer for, and it's really rich to hear someone propose that as a plan for our future. Hate to be the one to shit on anyone's parade, (I don't actually hate it, that was a lie) but we've done unspeakable harms to each other with our bad old human tendencies for millenia, no matter what tech or religion was in play at the time, so why exactly will it be worse because we are all plumbed in to one another? Poulos's explanation was (and is always) wordy, rambling and mostly incoherent unless you already buy the religious aspects. Maybe it will just be the same ol' shitshow of greed and violence interspersed with great art and culture. Y'know, people shit. I for one am willing to at least remain open to different, and possibly better ways of interacting. Although I very much do not want to get a lecture from my couch about my posture.

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Jonas Stenmark's avatar

I'm in the same seat and while i don't know from which path in life led you to the opinion on religion, i seem to share some of your opinions.

Jonathan Haidt's book on morality was a good read for me and gave me a less opposed stance to religion Andy can see the positive effects of religion. It was also (i think) where he wrote about self isolated communes in USA and the clear difference after (i think 20) years of how many remained- religious based versus ideology based; communities based on religious foundations are way more long-lived/enduring than non religious ones.

So i guess while I'm not so aggressively opposed to religion or flabbergasted that it continues to stay in our future-building. I still think it's have immense flaws. It was in the Warmaster episode previous to this one talked that Christianity have a rough time as it can't prove the core of itself. My experience is the complete opposite- Things like "when you see truth, you recognize it" , "God don't prove himself to any one demanding proof, good don't accept ultimatums" and other flimsy claims runs unchecked by humanity ongoingly.

Doi think there is a god? Not anymore. Could there be a god? Absolutely!

But the amount of arrogance i would have to accept in myself is staggering. Thinking I was born into (which i was) the "right" religion in the time i was born to the parents i had and not be even considering what i was brought up with being 100% wrong should just not be ok to anyone. Search all your life and change opinion 100 fold and it still don't become a good assumption that "now i know what's what". That's what made me less prone to absolute statements of knowledge myself long ago.

For me who grew up in Sweden's first prosperity church: 1. I'm way too angry, about my past, still and i know it and so don't claim it to be a malevolent idea (religion) even if my experience haven't pointed elsewhere. 2. I've heard the talk so often and learned to decipher it well enough from a cynical viewpoint, if not 100% true. 3. I think i grasp what your last sentence means fully about "lecture from my couch about my posture"

It was a disappointment , this third episode to me. Religion was placed where he "should" have placed a strong brick that don't need faith.

It was like looking at Matrix revolution again.

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Aaron George's avatar

My path did not include indoctrination into organized religion, and I've always (since childhood) been skeptical of anyone providing untestable answers to real problems. Even as a young person I could see the logic leaps, and I could see people around me constantly using those logic leaps to help justify very inhumane and corrupt practices. As an early teen I devoured mainstream news and got to watch snippets of the Troubles in Ireland, and it was often framed as religion vs religion. Clearly much more nuance is involved in such a long-standing conflict, but the religious aspect is a factor. I watched devoutly religious people in my community step on and backstab people to get ahead. I also know many, many people who try very hard to live the life laid down to them in their holy books, only to look around them and see a world that clearly does not operate according to those texts and teachings. The dissonance this creates seems to polarize some people and either make them throw in the towel on their faith entirely, or decide to overtly over-dedicate themselves to piety, including sermonizing on very aspect of life. Mostly, though, I think people cope in the same way they cope with politicians and other leader-figures constantly lying to them. It's the water we all swim in, so one just gets used to the many hypocrisies. As you also said, when we were younger many issues appeared very black and white, and as we age we come to the inescapable realization that we are very complex beings and societies, and there is no easy way to "fix" our many shortcomings. It is entirely possible that we would live in greater harmony if we all dedicated ourselves to Christian, Muslim or even Scientologist principles, but unless we go all the way and remove the profit motive and the compete/compare mentality we will always have many people who speak out of both sides of their mouths. We cannot have mental peace in a world in which there are literal kings and queens who also pretend to live a pious life. Same goes for the money lovers and hoarders. We simply must stop regarding that behaviour as healthy and just. Ironically, most of my ideas for living a more virtuous, cooperative, peaceful life are found in the Bible and other religious texts, so I can't claim they're my own. But I also can't abide the use of those principles to accumulate personal, corporate or national power and wealth, while ignoring the suffering of billions of people. When we are children we are encouraged to share our toys, our lunch and our time, and never be violent. As adults we are encouraged to hoard those things and sell them for profit whenever possible, and violence and war seems acceptable, even to religious people and institutions. Until I see a willing devolution of power away from institutions and symbols (including nation-states) I can't get behind the idea of religion being anything but a minor part of the way forward. Faith I have no problem with. The religious empires, both literal and figurative, need to go.

Wow, and I accused Polous of being wordy. Sorry, if I was an editor there would be no beginning, and no end, only rambling on forever.

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