I had a very interesting conversation with Luke Burgis, whose book Wanting: The Power of Mimetic Desire in Everyday Life had a very good effect on me recently.
58:50 "When you're starving for meaning you'll eat the first thing on your plate." Damn. That hit me like a ton of bricks standing in line at Chipotle just now.
The discussion brings to mind one of my favourite quotes from Kierkegaard*:
"The formula that describes the state of the self when despair is completely rooted out is this: in relating itself to itself and in willing to be itself, the self rests transparently in the power that established it."
—The Sickness Unto Death; Part I: Section A: Paragraph 6 (p. 14 in the Hong paperback)
*Strictly speaking, it is a quotation of the pseudonym Anti-Climacus—Kierkegaard's pseudonymous writings, the bulk of what most people have heard of or read, are best thought of as if the pseudonym is a fictional character Kierkegaard created and then had write one or more books. Just as we ought to read The Grand Inquisitor as a piece of writing by Ivan Karamazov, not exactly Dostoevsky himself.
Love that. Kierkegaard is vastly underrated, and especially so as a thinker dealing with mimetic desire. He was steeped in it. He understood. His alter-ego’s were his unique way of treating it. Existentialism came up in the course of pod (namely, Satre). I think Kierkegaard is a beautiful counter-balance to him, though. One represent a kind of nihilistic existentialism and the other a very different one.
3/4 of the way through and I like the way you both think about memisis.
Just wanted to let you know Darryl, that you and Jordan Peterson (and Pageau) have conspired to confront my weirdness about it get me into a church, finally. I think my lifelong wrestle with Christianity has met a turning point (but certainly not ended) and I'm willing to embrace it, now, rather than just flirt with it. Complete with the birth of my two kids (which you also helped me welcome) and my suddenly feels full of meaning.
Ivan Karamatzov made the Omelas argument, based on a story of an abused child, saying he wanted no part of any salvation that required this. Always stuck with me.
I’d like to express my gratitude to both Darryl and Luke Burgis for this interview. As a person with little to no background on the likes of Rene Girard, Nietzsche, and Dostoevsky, I found it very interesting and enlightening. I do, however, have a few thoughts/questions/comments on these issues.
I question what is referred to in the interview as “The Truth”. I apologize, but that is not “The Truth”, that is “Your Truth”, and I don’t deny that it may very well be the truth for yourself and others. I’m thinking, however, that if I’m a young black male growing up in modern America, my truth looks very different from your truth. My truth, in that situation, is that the mob is the systemic/institutional racism that exists in the US. It impacts my ability to arrive on time because I must account for being randomly pulled over by the police because being a young black male is considered adequate reason to pull a person over. It impacts my ability to get a good job because, all other things being equal on the resume, the guy with the white name is generally going to get the job over the guy with the black name. It impacts my ability to get a mortgage at a reasonable rate. That mob impacts my physical safety and the safety of my loved ones. Perhaps even more importantly, that mob negatively impacts what others think of me, what I think of myself, and what I think others think of me. Living with that truth, joining and/or supporting a social justice movement makes a whole lot of sense, and the idea that that would be something considered “radical” is further evidence of the strength of that mob mentality with deep historical roots in the United States. Now I’m not black, I’m a brown guy, and that comes with its own truths, but the white and black stories are the bookends in the American context, between which the other remaining truths lay.
Moving on to scapegoating. I certainly would not deny that scapegoating exists and happens on the left, and unfortunately the likes of twitter, social media, and cable news seem to amplify these human tendencies. I did notice, however, an awfully convenient lack of discussion with the reverse perspective. The right scapegoats the left all the darn time and, if we’re being honest, they’re way better at it than the left. They scapegoat Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi, AOC, “liberal media”, BLM, immigrants, refugees, and clearly the list could go on. I think it’s somewhat disingenuous to claim how horrible it is to scapegoat people (even the ones who do bad things) and have no mention of how this is also done by the right/conservatives in the US. Sorry, but this episode and previous ones consistently scapegoat liberals and intellectuals for all the problems in the world, and that’s fine? Is it really only a problem when the people being scapegoated are ones you agree with? You scapegoat me then I scapegoat you, the one with more power wins, this is what happens. Perhaps, and this is just an idea, but perhaps both sides would be far better off if, instead of constantly decrying the injustices and abominations of the other side, they simply focus, improve upon, and have compassion for themselves. When we have compassion for ourselves, we can begin to have compassion for others, which is, unfortunately, something that seems to be lacking on both sides of the American political spectrum. I can’t help but think of that quote from the Silence of the Lambs movie.
“You see a lot, Doctor. But are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about it? Why don't you - why don't you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you're afraid to.”
On another point, I thought your brief summary of 3 of the 4 noble truths did a real disservice. The 3rd noble truth, at least from my understanding, isn’t about ending desire, it’s about releasing the suffering caused by desire (or aversion or delusion). As you mention in the beginning your experience in comparative religion literature, I was honestly confused by this misstep. Of course, as the episode went on, I noticed many parallels with Buddhist paradigms (speaking generally, there are different schools of Buddhism as I understand) and perhaps that’s why it was just kind of casually brushed off. Understandably this isn’t a Buddhist podcast so you probably wouldn’t want to do a distracting dive in that direction when there’s only so much time for the interview, but in that case it’s probably best to just leave that part out completely.
Beyond that, thank you for this clarifying and enlightening interview, and thank you for creating a space where we can have these sorts of discussions. May you, Luke, your loved ones, and the other substackers be safe, healthy, and happy. Take care and be well 😊
I disagree that the right scapegoats more than the left. As a gun owner I'm tired of being blamed for every nutjob that shoots up a public space. And christians in this country have tons of abuse thrown their way by the media machine.
I can certainly get behind there being regional "realities" that you are describing using race, those are also the realities in some environments of sex, hair color, your car, home, spouse and a myriad of other outward manifestations of self. I would not call them "truth" though, I think that concept must be held at a higher level. I think truth is an almost sacred thing, by definition it is universal not personal. I get in the day to day humans corrupt truth and that is the reality of each of us but that is not truth it is a debasement of it.
Well I think when you put it that way you debase the everyday realities of those people's experience, to say that the black experience in America is the same as me driving a mini cooper is a pretty great debasement. So, what is this universal truth you refer to then? In my mind, gravity is a universal truth, science is a universal truth, compassion and love are universal truths, impermanence is a universal truth. The episode, however, speaks a great deal about scapegoating and our current experience in America, and so that was what I was referring to in my original comment.
Thanks so much for having this interview with Luke. The convergence of Girard with N and D, previously addressed in one of your podcasts was extremely insightful and helpful. The conversation was only hampered by the poverty of time. I could see this interview easily as one of many with Luke. So much to unearth and peruse. Stay well and safe in these turbulent times.
Thank you for this. Just this morning I was contemplating the explosion of fads, transgenderism, tattoos, why pretty girls in high school are ignored until they go to college and then get tons of attention from guys who ignored the pretty girls in their own school. I didn't even have a name to label it with other than "fashion" which is basically self referential. I've been thinking about this "red pilling" phenomenon for a few years now and haven't been able to wrap my mind around it at all. This gives me a lot to think about a chew on.
1. This podcast continues to be intellectually challenging to an extent that exceeds most regularly available sources.
2. But dammit, I thought I had a decently consistent philosophical understanding of the world, and now I’ve learned about this new way of understanding human cultural behavior that I can’t ignore.
Here’s the question I’m left with: Is there an off-ramp once a society gets into a spiral of memetic violence? Or does the cultural infrastructure face the same rising maintenance costs and diminishing returns as the physical infrastructure, leaving collapse, and a new start, as the only way forward?
Some great stuff here, guys. Sometimes it's scary how fast two hours can fly by. Thanks for letting us listen in!
While I was listening, I found myself wondering how Girard deals with the Holy Spirit. My Reformed Protestantism is probably showing, but I wanted the roar of a preacher where I found the podcast discussion to be modest on what seemed to me to be the most important part of dealing with mimetic contagion.
When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, it is not inevitable that when he returns with his seven evil spirit buddies he will find the man empty. Jesus didn't leave us as orphans. He sent his Spirit to be with us and in us as we love God and obey him. This is how the downward cycle stops--that place in us where the demons live needs to be swept clean and put in order AND become a home for the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit also enables us to be like Christ--to imitate him. That is, we have power from God himself to follow Christ as our example. Peter talks like this all the time, especially in relation to Christ's suffering (1 Peter 2:21-25, for example). I took this as the power that Burgis mentioned, but it's far too modest to just leave this as a vague 'power' that comes into the world during the time of the apostles, especially if the Spirit is our only hope to live according to the will of God instead of following the lusts of men (1 Peter 4:1-2).
This is not a rant. You guys are doing a lot of good by pointing people to bear a yoke, to live intentional and disciplined lives. This is in line with how God made the world and therefore in line with the good life. I'm sure you're both really helping real people. But you stop too soon if you never get to faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit, and you leave all those people you've helped vulnerable to the unclean spirit's return.
Maybe this is my way to say that I can't wait to hear your next conversation together. Ha. Thanks again, guys.
Darryl, love your commentary and content as usual, you had a podcast in the past few months,either martyrmade or unraveling where you talked about the Old Testament God, can you remind me which one it was? I would like my husband to listen. Thank you again for your thought provoking content
Thank you so much Darryl, I am listening to this episode again, definitely a different take on both old and new testaments, I really appreciate your thoughtful presentation of this material and the different perspectives provided. Keep it coming!
I miss the long form history podcasts. Thats what your best at. That's what you built your reputation as a podcaster upon. Its weird to see you stray from that formula. Perhaps its just an attempt to keep content coming out while your working on a larger project? Idk. Haven't really been interested in many of these conversations. I still give them a try but get to end and realize i wasnt listening. I still love the podcasts you do with Jocko though.
Your right. Perhaps just wasnt my cup of tea. I really enjoyed the Human Forever series even though im not religious. Curious to see what big project you got coming next!
Wow! Call me ignorant, but I didn't even know Rene Girard existed and now I'm fascinated. This substack is one of the only ones I regularly visit, and I'm always the better for it. And thank you for recommending me "The Deluge" by Adam Tooze. I'm working my way through it, having finished Wrangel's memoir. What a masterpiece of a book; extremely well argued!
58:50 "When you're starving for meaning you'll eat the first thing on your plate." Damn. That hit me like a ton of bricks standing in line at Chipotle just now.
Comment of the week
The discussion brings to mind one of my favourite quotes from Kierkegaard*:
"The formula that describes the state of the self when despair is completely rooted out is this: in relating itself to itself and in willing to be itself, the self rests transparently in the power that established it."
—The Sickness Unto Death; Part I: Section A: Paragraph 6 (p. 14 in the Hong paperback)
*Strictly speaking, it is a quotation of the pseudonym Anti-Climacus—Kierkegaard's pseudonymous writings, the bulk of what most people have heard of or read, are best thought of as if the pseudonym is a fictional character Kierkegaard created and then had write one or more books. Just as we ought to read The Grand Inquisitor as a piece of writing by Ivan Karamazov, not exactly Dostoevsky himself.
Love that. Kierkegaard is vastly underrated, and especially so as a thinker dealing with mimetic desire. He was steeped in it. He understood. His alter-ego’s were his unique way of treating it. Existentialism came up in the course of pod (namely, Satre). I think Kierkegaard is a beautiful counter-balance to him, though. One represent a kind of nihilistic existentialism and the other a very different one.
3/4 of the way through and I like the way you both think about memisis.
Just wanted to let you know Darryl, that you and Jordan Peterson (and Pageau) have conspired to confront my weirdness about it get me into a church, finally. I think my lifelong wrestle with Christianity has met a turning point (but certainly not ended) and I'm willing to embrace it, now, rather than just flirt with it. Complete with the birth of my two kids (which you also helped me welcome) and my suddenly feels full of meaning.
So thanks, mate.
Ivan Karamatzov made the Omelas argument, based on a story of an abused child, saying he wanted no part of any salvation that required this. Always stuck with me.
I have got to read this book. Very powerful image, came to think of child slavery in the chocolate industry.
I’d like to express my gratitude to both Darryl and Luke Burgis for this interview. As a person with little to no background on the likes of Rene Girard, Nietzsche, and Dostoevsky, I found it very interesting and enlightening. I do, however, have a few thoughts/questions/comments on these issues.
I question what is referred to in the interview as “The Truth”. I apologize, but that is not “The Truth”, that is “Your Truth”, and I don’t deny that it may very well be the truth for yourself and others. I’m thinking, however, that if I’m a young black male growing up in modern America, my truth looks very different from your truth. My truth, in that situation, is that the mob is the systemic/institutional racism that exists in the US. It impacts my ability to arrive on time because I must account for being randomly pulled over by the police because being a young black male is considered adequate reason to pull a person over. It impacts my ability to get a good job because, all other things being equal on the resume, the guy with the white name is generally going to get the job over the guy with the black name. It impacts my ability to get a mortgage at a reasonable rate. That mob impacts my physical safety and the safety of my loved ones. Perhaps even more importantly, that mob negatively impacts what others think of me, what I think of myself, and what I think others think of me. Living with that truth, joining and/or supporting a social justice movement makes a whole lot of sense, and the idea that that would be something considered “radical” is further evidence of the strength of that mob mentality with deep historical roots in the United States. Now I’m not black, I’m a brown guy, and that comes with its own truths, but the white and black stories are the bookends in the American context, between which the other remaining truths lay.
Moving on to scapegoating. I certainly would not deny that scapegoating exists and happens on the left, and unfortunately the likes of twitter, social media, and cable news seem to amplify these human tendencies. I did notice, however, an awfully convenient lack of discussion with the reverse perspective. The right scapegoats the left all the darn time and, if we’re being honest, they’re way better at it than the left. They scapegoat Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi, AOC, “liberal media”, BLM, immigrants, refugees, and clearly the list could go on. I think it’s somewhat disingenuous to claim how horrible it is to scapegoat people (even the ones who do bad things) and have no mention of how this is also done by the right/conservatives in the US. Sorry, but this episode and previous ones consistently scapegoat liberals and intellectuals for all the problems in the world, and that’s fine? Is it really only a problem when the people being scapegoated are ones you agree with? You scapegoat me then I scapegoat you, the one with more power wins, this is what happens. Perhaps, and this is just an idea, but perhaps both sides would be far better off if, instead of constantly decrying the injustices and abominations of the other side, they simply focus, improve upon, and have compassion for themselves. When we have compassion for ourselves, we can begin to have compassion for others, which is, unfortunately, something that seems to be lacking on both sides of the American political spectrum. I can’t help but think of that quote from the Silence of the Lambs movie.
“You see a lot, Doctor. But are you strong enough to point that high-powered perception at yourself? What about it? Why don't you - why don't you look at yourself and write down what you see? Or maybe you're afraid to.”
On another point, I thought your brief summary of 3 of the 4 noble truths did a real disservice. The 3rd noble truth, at least from my understanding, isn’t about ending desire, it’s about releasing the suffering caused by desire (or aversion or delusion). As you mention in the beginning your experience in comparative religion literature, I was honestly confused by this misstep. Of course, as the episode went on, I noticed many parallels with Buddhist paradigms (speaking generally, there are different schools of Buddhism as I understand) and perhaps that’s why it was just kind of casually brushed off. Understandably this isn’t a Buddhist podcast so you probably wouldn’t want to do a distracting dive in that direction when there’s only so much time for the interview, but in that case it’s probably best to just leave that part out completely.
Beyond that, thank you for this clarifying and enlightening interview, and thank you for creating a space where we can have these sorts of discussions. May you, Luke, your loved ones, and the other substackers be safe, healthy, and happy. Take care and be well 😊
I disagree that the right scapegoats more than the left. As a gun owner I'm tired of being blamed for every nutjob that shoots up a public space. And christians in this country have tons of abuse thrown their way by the media machine.
I can certainly get behind there being regional "realities" that you are describing using race, those are also the realities in some environments of sex, hair color, your car, home, spouse and a myriad of other outward manifestations of self. I would not call them "truth" though, I think that concept must be held at a higher level. I think truth is an almost sacred thing, by definition it is universal not personal. I get in the day to day humans corrupt truth and that is the reality of each of us but that is not truth it is a debasement of it.
Well I think when you put it that way you debase the everyday realities of those people's experience, to say that the black experience in America is the same as me driving a mini cooper is a pretty great debasement. So, what is this universal truth you refer to then? In my mind, gravity is a universal truth, science is a universal truth, compassion and love are universal truths, impermanence is a universal truth. The episode, however, speaks a great deal about scapegoating and our current experience in America, and so that was what I was referring to in my original comment.
Dear Darryl.
Thanks so much for having this interview with Luke. The convergence of Girard with N and D, previously addressed in one of your podcasts was extremely insightful and helpful. The conversation was only hampered by the poverty of time. I could see this interview easily as one of many with Luke. So much to unearth and peruse. Stay well and safe in these turbulent times.
Thank you for this. Just this morning I was contemplating the explosion of fads, transgenderism, tattoos, why pretty girls in high school are ignored until they go to college and then get tons of attention from guys who ignored the pretty girls in their own school. I didn't even have a name to label it with other than "fashion" which is basically self referential. I've been thinking about this "red pilling" phenomenon for a few years now and haven't been able to wrap my mind around it at all. This gives me a lot to think about a chew on.
So...thank you.
I had two strong reactions to this episode:
1. This podcast continues to be intellectually challenging to an extent that exceeds most regularly available sources.
2. But dammit, I thought I had a decently consistent philosophical understanding of the world, and now I’ve learned about this new way of understanding human cultural behavior that I can’t ignore.
Here’s the question I’m left with: Is there an off-ramp once a society gets into a spiral of memetic violence? Or does the cultural infrastructure face the same rising maintenance costs and diminishing returns as the physical infrastructure, leaving collapse, and a new start, as the only way forward?
Some great stuff here, guys. Sometimes it's scary how fast two hours can fly by. Thanks for letting us listen in!
While I was listening, I found myself wondering how Girard deals with the Holy Spirit. My Reformed Protestantism is probably showing, but I wanted the roar of a preacher where I found the podcast discussion to be modest on what seemed to me to be the most important part of dealing with mimetic contagion.
When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, it is not inevitable that when he returns with his seven evil spirit buddies he will find the man empty. Jesus didn't leave us as orphans. He sent his Spirit to be with us and in us as we love God and obey him. This is how the downward cycle stops--that place in us where the demons live needs to be swept clean and put in order AND become a home for the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit also enables us to be like Christ--to imitate him. That is, we have power from God himself to follow Christ as our example. Peter talks like this all the time, especially in relation to Christ's suffering (1 Peter 2:21-25, for example). I took this as the power that Burgis mentioned, but it's far too modest to just leave this as a vague 'power' that comes into the world during the time of the apostles, especially if the Spirit is our only hope to live according to the will of God instead of following the lusts of men (1 Peter 4:1-2).
This is not a rant. You guys are doing a lot of good by pointing people to bear a yoke, to live intentional and disciplined lives. This is in line with how God made the world and therefore in line with the good life. I'm sure you're both really helping real people. But you stop too soon if you never get to faith in Christ and walking by the Spirit, and you leave all those people you've helped vulnerable to the unclean spirit's return.
Maybe this is my way to say that I can't wait to hear your next conversation together. Ha. Thanks again, guys.
Still not a fan of this new Martyr Made book club we are having...
I know, I’m sorry. I got overwhelmed and way behind on work. Things are settling down and I’m getting into a better routine, though.
That's why i joined my first ever book club! To discuss everything EXCEPT the selected book!
YES! Looking forward to this.
Let's Go!
Darryl, love your commentary and content as usual, you had a podcast in the past few months,either martyrmade or unraveling where you talked about the Old Testament God, can you remind me which one it was? I would like my husband to listen. Thank you again for your thought provoking content
If I'm thinking of the same one as you when Jim Jones is compared to old testament God and the purple man.
It's episode 15 part 5 of gods socialists 48 minutes in.
Thank you so much Darryl, I am listening to this episode again, definitely a different take on both old and new testaments, I really appreciate your thoughtful presentation of this material and the different perspectives provided. Keep it coming!
I miss the long form history podcasts. Thats what your best at. That's what you built your reputation as a podcaster upon. Its weird to see you stray from that formula. Perhaps its just an attempt to keep content coming out while your working on a larger project? Idk. Haven't really been interested in many of these conversations. I still give them a try but get to end and realize i wasnt listening. I still love the podcasts you do with Jocko though.
Can’t turn out a 6 hour podcast every week.
Your right. Perhaps just wasnt my cup of tea. I really enjoyed the Human Forever series even though im not religious. Curious to see what big project you got coming next!
The rewind button is your friend, don't be ashamed, I do it too. And I feel like most of these heavy ones need to be listened to more than once.
Wow! Call me ignorant, but I didn't even know Rene Girard existed and now I'm fascinated. This substack is one of the only ones I regularly visit, and I'm always the better for it. And thank you for recommending me "The Deluge" by Adam Tooze. I'm working my way through it, having finished Wrangel's memoir. What a masterpiece of a book; extremely well argued!
So very insightful and pertinent, as always! Thank you! 🙏