Darryl, the picture you painted of the Appalachian folk prior to the coal mining really resonated with me. My political philosophy has evolved a lot over the years going from a tow-the-line republican as until two tours in Iraq cooled me off to the global adventures of our elite and then I delved deep into Libertarianism but after several years in the corporate world and all of the greed, corruption, and incompetence I saw there cooled me off to the idea of a completely privatized society, at least one in our modern corporate context. Now I don’t have any political philosophy, but whatever that pre-modern, honor-based, tight knit community you described is called- that’s what I am all about. All of modernity’s projects be damned, I’ll take the village’s rule of custom over the empire’s rule of law any day of the week.
Well said, and well written. I truly appreciate your journey of awakening to your true nature, not whatever manages to co-opt you for a time. It would serve a lot of people to embark on their own such journey, and be honest about their own intentions and motivations. We can have a world full of this type of nuanced, balanced thinking, but unfortunately the war isn't over with those who wish to gain advantage and empower and enrich themselves at others' expense.
Thanks for personal story and arc. Im guessing many in here have had their libertarianism-periods and Nietzsche aka nihilism in their youths. Until we grow, see the world and hopefully get wiser.
This was one of your best podcasts to date, and you already had a high bar set there. Every time MartyrMade releases a long one, I know, in some small way, it will change me. I was a New England kid, seems like we never got a seriously proper appreciation of what being an "American" is. It didn't carry a real identity with it. But there is such a thing as a real American, and i hope we remember what it was that these men and their families suffered and fought to the death for, it certainly wasn't simple in being "riled up" as you thankfully point out. The person who comes to that shallow of a conclusion isn't so much speaking of those miners, but of themselves. Those "deplorables", "rednecks", "hillbillys", "white trash" have more history here, have more America in their blood than just about anyone else. Their story is so untold, I would think most Americans don't even know that they have real stories like this, this summoned tears to me. Especially with Steve Earle at the end there, thanks for that.
My five- and six-year old kids got to listen to the first three hours on the ride home from our vacation. Not one peep did they make. I’m sure they were as captivated as me.
There are highways and state routes into all these hollers, but it’s still very isolated and difficult terrain.
For instance, I was on a job site on a coal surface mine in Mingo County, we had approx 7000 ft of natural gas pipeline to look at stretching across a mountain and it took us 45 minutes to go from one side of the mountain to the other end by taking the state route.
The part of WV where this story takes place has been completely ravaged by the opioid epidemic. We have the highest overdose rate in the US. Poverty is generational in some parts. The mechanization of coal produced a mass exodus that has span six decades. It left places like Welch, Logan, Williamson and Bluefield shells of their former selves, ghost towns.
Undoubtedly, there is a sense of fatalism here, but also pride, faith, and love of country. WV suffered the highest casualty rate of any state in the Vietnam War. The last surviving WWII Medal of Honor winner, Woody Williams, was a West Virginian, he passed away in June. WV miners always took immense pride in providing the energy for the American war machine during WWI and WWII. Despite all the death, suffering and exploitation, we still believe in America.
To say this story hits close to home is an understatement, this is my home. My ancestors settled the Tug River area in Wayne County, which is right next to Mingo County on the WV - KY border. The site where the miners met to begin the march to Bloody Mingo is less than 10 miles away from my doorstep.
We are overlooked, underpaid, under appreciated and the butt of jokes that have never been funny. We are also kind, loyal and have never met a stranger.
I’m eternally grateful for DC telling our story.
Nothing encapsulates WVians more than what happened a few days here linked below
I had to pause too as I became so sad when the companies came in to seize the land challenging these people in courts. My bloodline was the first settlers in Breathitt County KY of Nobles and Neaces. It’s a story that hits and hurts my heart for sure and what’s sad is so many don’t know this story and just see the people as some stereotype.
The casual, predatory dispossession of people seems to be a common theme running through the history of industrialization, no matter where you look. In the 21st century we are still booting people off land they've farmed and occupied for generations in order to perpetuate yet another industrial scheme.
We may be related. Nathan Noble was the first settler to the area. My maternal grandfather was Denvard Noble. He lived and died in Breathitt on Leatherwood. My parents both are from Breathitt but I was born in NKY as they came up here for work. I spent my summers visiting family in Jackson though, staying the night with relatives from both sides of the family.
I think it is one of the most beautiful states in the country. It offer the best of everything if you ask me because it's on a smaller scale than -taller mountain ranges.
Greenery, a change of season, beautiful scenery and snowfalls and wonderful people.
The opioids in WV preyed upon the best of people and it is truly disgusting.
You West Virginians are awesome!
We were passing through one time and stayed at this really cool fly-fishing spot because they had a couple rental cabins that allowed dogs. I didn't fly fish but the little restaurant there had fresh trout on the menu. I had trout for breakast, lunch and dinner! It was fresh caught by the anglers and such and no way was I going to miss that chance!
My mother will be 80 soon and I'd like to take her on a little road trip while she is still able and that is where I want to take her. (we're up in NW Ohio). As the crow flies it doesn't seem far and THEN you realize the mountains are in the way. You come from good people.
I got goosebumps listening to this. I grew up on the ohio side of the Ohio River Valley not far from the Huntington and Southern WV and a lot of that hillbilly culture permiates up here as well.
Years ago I did a 23andMe test and no surprise I'm Scots-Irish but when I asked my dad what his ancestry is he gave a simple reply "I'm an American". I thought it was an odd response at first but after listening to this you've given me a better perspective. Also helps that he's Union and knows some of the Hatfield's since he hauled cars for them when he was a teamster. This podcast was personal, thank you
Darryl, I’m only 2 hrs in but I already believe this will be your best series. Great job!
As an fyi to other fans, I think some good background context to this episode are some series on the inward empire podcast- soldiers of capital covers the pinkertons, and the great strike covers the railroad strike of 1877
I’m not sure who ran that podcast but possibly a guest in a future martyr made conversation style podcast?
Sam Davis was/is one of the kings of the history podcast space. I think he retired the show though; it sounded like COVID and overall burnout was a factor. He and I have actually been chatting occasionally about having him on my show to discuss it and really anything else that comes to mind. I couldn't tell you if he was planning to bring the show back, but that would be amazing. So that's why I second this recommendation wholeheartedly, including the idea of Darryl having him on. I'm planning to relisten to those episodes while listening to this series for the very reason you laid out.
Yes, anyone here should check out Inward Empire. The entire basis of the podcast is the myths surrounding American foundations and culture. The same lens could easily be used to examine any liberal democracy, and it would invariably lead to some awkward questions with unsatisfactory answers.
I will qualify the private property statement by saying that in the company town the property owner was the de facto government so it is akin to the authoritarianism of communism and the company could always count on govt forces siding with them because they also owned the actual government.
That’s my point. Even under a system of free market capitalism a private entity with unchecked power is no different than a totalitarian state. It doesn’t matter if there is private property if it is all owned by one entity, whether that entity is the government or corporate interests makes no difference. Though the system was privatized, the reality for the miners was of little difference than the reality for villagers in the Soviet Union or communist china.
There is a podcast on this feed (Last Stand of the Nation State w/John Robb) that addresses the disturbing prospect of corporations wielding more power than their host nation-states. As you pointed out, totalitarianism in any form usually all bad, and is obviously far more likely under a privately-owned system where the owners are accountable to no one. We might bitch about our representative govts here in the west, but they still give at least the illusion of listening to their constituents.
The mining companies' treatment of it's employees was despicable. The fact that our federal government sided with the mining companies is beyond despicable. Since history tends to repeat itself with governments there is no doubt in my mind our government would not hesitate for a nanosecond to use the FULL force of the American Military against We The People and sleep like babies at night while doing it. That is something we all need to be cognizant of.
Thanks for covering yet another amazing, and yet totally unknown to me chapter in American history.
Seems like you took a different frame for this series. I liked the conclusion: WV coal miners were not living in a democracy, rather it was a terrible peonage second only to slavery earlier in our history. Mother Jones' laser eyes apparently saw this as the fulfillment of her Marxist class struggle ideology. But were the WV mining operators really 'capitalist' oppressors? Or were they state-sponsored mercantilists, like the South Sea Company?
For example, you do an excellent job tracing how the miners got to the region, but not much about how the operators did, other than they bought up strips of land (apparently very quickly). If they acquired that land by fraud, ripping off illiterate people, we can't say a free market exchange took place, and certainly not within the rule of law. Were they given land by the state, or leased it through uncompetitive auctions / low rates? Local & state officials were corrupt partners with the operators, which again is neither democratic, free market nor American. F these Robber Barons.
Dunno. Mother Jones strikes me as an ambivalent character. On balance her contribution seems good; inspiring the miners, shining a spotlight on their terrible oppression and forcing the operators to make concessions. On the other hand, we can draw a straight line from her Marxian rhetoric to the miner army's disastrous march up Blair Mountain. Sure, by then the whirlwind was too much for her to influence, but that's how all revolutions go. And the tragic end seems to be that the miners lose, going back into the black hole and union membership dries up. The country is horrified by armed proletariat wearing red scarves, perhaps because they'd heard how things were going in Russia around the same time. If that is right, then we'd say Mother had some brilliant tactical victories, but was a strategic failure. The broader American labor movement (/Progressive) was more successful than the WV miners, but those ideological roots produced mixed fruit, with Detriot / UAW as a case study. Curious what you think.
Lastly, my favorite part of the episode is your nimble treatment of violence, particularly at the end. Like the Israeli episode, you make it easy to empathize with the miners position and very difficult to imagine doing anything differently in their shoes. Do humans have a right to take up arms, let's say as a last straw to defend their lives and their families? Of course they do. Cue the Braveheart yell....
Good point with Detroit. Much like how people sometimes rightly bemoan unfettered capitalism, the auto industry is what happens when unions run the show. This is coming from an ex-Teamster.
Darryl, the picture you painted of the Appalachian folk prior to the coal mining really resonated with me. My political philosophy has evolved a lot over the years going from a tow-the-line republican as until two tours in Iraq cooled me off to the global adventures of our elite and then I delved deep into Libertarianism but after several years in the corporate world and all of the greed, corruption, and incompetence I saw there cooled me off to the idea of a completely privatized society, at least one in our modern corporate context. Now I don’t have any political philosophy, but whatever that pre-modern, honor-based, tight knit community you described is called- that’s what I am all about. All of modernity’s projects be damned, I’ll take the village’s rule of custom over the empire’s rule of law any day of the week.
Well said, and well written. I truly appreciate your journey of awakening to your true nature, not whatever manages to co-opt you for a time. It would serve a lot of people to embark on their own such journey, and be honest about their own intentions and motivations. We can have a world full of this type of nuanced, balanced thinking, but unfortunately the war isn't over with those who wish to gain advantage and empower and enrich themselves at others' expense.
Resonating with the same thing as well. Learning what lawyers, statesmen alike have done to the faith based communities as well really grinds me.
Seeing what RINOs and even principled conservatives prioritize these last two years has been eye-opening.
Thanks for personal story and arc. Im guessing many in here have had their libertarianism-periods and Nietzsche aka nihilism in their youths. Until we grow, see the world and hopefully get wiser.
This was one of your best podcasts to date, and you already had a high bar set there. Every time MartyrMade releases a long one, I know, in some small way, it will change me. I was a New England kid, seems like we never got a seriously proper appreciation of what being an "American" is. It didn't carry a real identity with it. But there is such a thing as a real American, and i hope we remember what it was that these men and their families suffered and fought to the death for, it certainly wasn't simple in being "riled up" as you thankfully point out. The person who comes to that shallow of a conclusion isn't so much speaking of those miners, but of themselves. Those "deplorables", "rednecks", "hillbillys", "white trash" have more history here, have more America in their blood than just about anyone else. Their story is so untold, I would think most Americans don't even know that they have real stories like this, this summoned tears to me. Especially with Steve Earle at the end there, thanks for that.
Whoooooo it's a labor day miracle!
Thanks for all the hard work Darryl! Really appreciate all the hard work that goes into these.
My five- and six-year old kids got to listen to the first three hours on the ride home from our vacation. Not one peep did they make. I’m sure they were as captivated as me.
From the hills of WV, thank you for this one. Cannot wait to listen to this one
Aussie here... what’s it like up there today?
There are highways and state routes into all these hollers, but it’s still very isolated and difficult terrain.
For instance, I was on a job site on a coal surface mine in Mingo County, we had approx 7000 ft of natural gas pipeline to look at stretching across a mountain and it took us 45 minutes to go from one side of the mountain to the other end by taking the state route.
The part of WV where this story takes place has been completely ravaged by the opioid epidemic. We have the highest overdose rate in the US. Poverty is generational in some parts. The mechanization of coal produced a mass exodus that has span six decades. It left places like Welch, Logan, Williamson and Bluefield shells of their former selves, ghost towns.
Undoubtedly, there is a sense of fatalism here, but also pride, faith, and love of country. WV suffered the highest casualty rate of any state in the Vietnam War. The last surviving WWII Medal of Honor winner, Woody Williams, was a West Virginian, he passed away in June. WV miners always took immense pride in providing the energy for the American war machine during WWI and WWII. Despite all the death, suffering and exploitation, we still believe in America.
To say this story hits close to home is an understatement, this is my home. My ancestors settled the Tug River area in Wayne County, which is right next to Mingo County on the WV - KY border. The site where the miners met to begin the march to Bloody Mingo is less than 10 miles away from my doorstep.
We are overlooked, underpaid, under appreciated and the butt of jokes that have never been funny. We are also kind, loyal and have never met a stranger.
I’m eternally grateful for DC telling our story.
Nothing encapsulates WVians more than what happened a few days here linked below
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/west-virginia-coal-miners-help-tourists-push-dead-electric-car.amp
Dam man. Thank you for replying in such detail. You sound like a tough group of people. Hope you take care mate
I had to pause too as I became so sad when the companies came in to seize the land challenging these people in courts. My bloodline was the first settlers in Breathitt County KY of Nobles and Neaces. It’s a story that hits and hurts my heart for sure and what’s sad is so many don’t know this story and just see the people as some stereotype.
The casual, predatory dispossession of people seems to be a common theme running through the history of industrialization, no matter where you look. In the 21st century we are still booting people off land they've farmed and occupied for generations in order to perpetuate yet another industrial scheme.
My maternal grandmother is from Breathitt County and her grandmother was a Noble.
We may be related. Nathan Noble was the first settler to the area. My maternal grandfather was Denvard Noble. He lived and died in Breathitt on Leatherwood. My parents both are from Breathitt but I was born in NKY as they came up here for work. I spent my summers visiting family in Jackson though, staying the night with relatives from both sides of the family.
I think it is one of the most beautiful states in the country. It offer the best of everything if you ask me because it's on a smaller scale than -taller mountain ranges.
Greenery, a change of season, beautiful scenery and snowfalls and wonderful people.
The opioids in WV preyed upon the best of people and it is truly disgusting.
You West Virginians are awesome!
We were passing through one time and stayed at this really cool fly-fishing spot because they had a couple rental cabins that allowed dogs. I didn't fly fish but the little restaurant there had fresh trout on the menu. I had trout for breakast, lunch and dinner! It was fresh caught by the anglers and such and no way was I going to miss that chance!
My mother will be 80 soon and I'd like to take her on a little road trip while she is still able and that is where I want to take her. (we're up in NW Ohio). As the crow flies it doesn't seem far and THEN you realize the mountains are in the way. You come from good people.
Damn! 6 hours of the best listening out there, work shall be better tomorrow, thank you for all the work you put into the content!
Congrats on getting through this one Daryl. Looking forward to taking it in.
Wow 5.5 hrs... Now that's a proper episode 1.
Feel free to take off early for the weekend .
MartyrMade Sid Hatfield shirts?
Hmm
I got goosebumps listening to this. I grew up on the ohio side of the Ohio River Valley not far from the Huntington and Southern WV and a lot of that hillbilly culture permiates up here as well.
Years ago I did a 23andMe test and no surprise I'm Scots-Irish but when I asked my dad what his ancestry is he gave a simple reply "I'm an American". I thought it was an odd response at first but after listening to this you've given me a better perspective. Also helps that he's Union and knows some of the Hatfield's since he hauled cars for them when he was a teamster. This podcast was personal, thank you
Darryl, I’m only 2 hrs in but I already believe this will be your best series. Great job!
As an fyi to other fans, I think some good background context to this episode are some series on the inward empire podcast- soldiers of capital covers the pinkertons, and the great strike covers the railroad strike of 1877
I’m not sure who ran that podcast but possibly a guest in a future martyr made conversation style podcast?
Sam Davis was/is one of the kings of the history podcast space. I think he retired the show though; it sounded like COVID and overall burnout was a factor. He and I have actually been chatting occasionally about having him on my show to discuss it and really anything else that comes to mind. I couldn't tell you if he was planning to bring the show back, but that would be amazing. So that's why I second this recommendation wholeheartedly, including the idea of Darryl having him on. I'm planning to relisten to those episodes while listening to this series for the very reason you laid out.
You run a great show yourself mr. Sternberg! I’m in the twin cities area
No kidding?? Well I'm glad you survived 2020. :P
Yes, anyone here should check out Inward Empire. The entire basis of the podcast is the myths surrounding American foundations and culture. The same lens could easily be used to examine any liberal democracy, and it would invariably lead to some awkward questions with unsatisfactory answers.
As I am listening to this I can’t help but ask, what is the difference, if any, from a company town and a Soviet or Communist city?
Or what are some parallels between the modern university system and a company town / indentured servitude
A company town is still private property. Under communism there is no private property. No civil liberties either so...
I will qualify the private property statement by saying that in the company town the property owner was the de facto government so it is akin to the authoritarianism of communism and the company could always count on govt forces siding with them because they also owned the actual government.
That’s my point. Even under a system of free market capitalism a private entity with unchecked power is no different than a totalitarian state. It doesn’t matter if there is private property if it is all owned by one entity, whether that entity is the government or corporate interests makes no difference. Though the system was privatized, the reality for the miners was of little difference than the reality for villagers in the Soviet Union or communist china.
There is a podcast on this feed (Last Stand of the Nation State w/John Robb) that addresses the disturbing prospect of corporations wielding more power than their host nation-states. As you pointed out, totalitarianism in any form usually all bad, and is obviously far more likely under a privately-owned system where the owners are accountable to no one. We might bitch about our representative govts here in the west, but they still give at least the illusion of listening to their constituents.
May have accidentally run an additional 5km while listening to this
Nothing gets me more fired up than DC dropping an episode right as I get off work!
Many thanks for all your hard research and work in producing these phenomenal pieces.
The mining companies' treatment of it's employees was despicable. The fact that our federal government sided with the mining companies is beyond despicable. Since history tends to repeat itself with governments there is no doubt in my mind our government would not hesitate for a nanosecond to use the FULL force of the American Military against We The People and sleep like babies at night while doing it. That is something we all need to be cognizant of.
DC,
Thanks for covering yet another amazing, and yet totally unknown to me chapter in American history.
Seems like you took a different frame for this series. I liked the conclusion: WV coal miners were not living in a democracy, rather it was a terrible peonage second only to slavery earlier in our history. Mother Jones' laser eyes apparently saw this as the fulfillment of her Marxist class struggle ideology. But were the WV mining operators really 'capitalist' oppressors? Or were they state-sponsored mercantilists, like the South Sea Company?
For example, you do an excellent job tracing how the miners got to the region, but not much about how the operators did, other than they bought up strips of land (apparently very quickly). If they acquired that land by fraud, ripping off illiterate people, we can't say a free market exchange took place, and certainly not within the rule of law. Were they given land by the state, or leased it through uncompetitive auctions / low rates? Local & state officials were corrupt partners with the operators, which again is neither democratic, free market nor American. F these Robber Barons.
Dunno. Mother Jones strikes me as an ambivalent character. On balance her contribution seems good; inspiring the miners, shining a spotlight on their terrible oppression and forcing the operators to make concessions. On the other hand, we can draw a straight line from her Marxian rhetoric to the miner army's disastrous march up Blair Mountain. Sure, by then the whirlwind was too much for her to influence, but that's how all revolutions go. And the tragic end seems to be that the miners lose, going back into the black hole and union membership dries up. The country is horrified by armed proletariat wearing red scarves, perhaps because they'd heard how things were going in Russia around the same time. If that is right, then we'd say Mother had some brilliant tactical victories, but was a strategic failure. The broader American labor movement (/Progressive) was more successful than the WV miners, but those ideological roots produced mixed fruit, with Detriot / UAW as a case study. Curious what you think.
Lastly, my favorite part of the episode is your nimble treatment of violence, particularly at the end. Like the Israeli episode, you make it easy to empathize with the miners position and very difficult to imagine doing anything differently in their shoes. Do humans have a right to take up arms, let's say as a last straw to defend their lives and their families? Of course they do. Cue the Braveheart yell....
Good point with Detroit. Much like how people sometimes rightly bemoan unfettered capitalism, the auto industry is what happens when unions run the show. This is coming from an ex-Teamster.